tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post6580180736860894834..comments2024-03-19T00:34:06.489-07:00Comments on Bones of Contention: Rashomon - Isle of the Plangent MageBen L.http://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-74429292541823015572021-07-13T04:20:29.343-07:002021-07-13T04:20:29.343-07:00If it makes you feel better, anything published fo...If it makes you feel better, anything published for OSE is immediately playable with B/X, Basic Fantasy, Labyrinth Lord, LotFP, ACKS, BECMI, or pretty much any other retroclone with basically zero conversion work. The adventures are also more or less standalone (aka not part of some big Canon), though there is an optional connection between Hole in the Oak and Incandescent Grottoes. Matt Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03301070414722134097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-19632096353636624622021-06-20T00:03:44.122-07:002021-06-20T00:03:44.122-07:00Bryce,
I think page counts come from outside most...Bryce,<br /><br />I think page counts come from outside mostly - like "We've got a deal on printing 58 pages or less" (not that I can speak to the specifics of OSE's KS offerings), but even then I agree that knowing how to accept the scope that your page count can contain, or the number of elements and interactive bits one can fit in a key, is a necessary skill for an adventure writer. I know I tend toward baroque description and complex spaces in my keys, so I can't expect more then 2 a page. If I had a 58 page limit for an adventure there's no way I'm going over 60(or 45 more likely)keys for example, and that's just something I need to accept and build my design around. It's good even. Accepting limits is good.<br /><br />On formalism and layout, I also agree. Accepting limits might be good, and structured keys far better then meandering free association, but artificial limits can strangle the life out of a project.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-87890197468656085622021-06-19T12:20:09.172-07:002021-06-19T12:20:09.172-07:00Thanks for the compliment Brent. I've been doi...Thanks for the compliment Brent. I've been doing a bit of posting on the why and how of my design peculiarities over on my personal design blog, even a piece on One Page Dungeons and scope.<br /><br />With OSE the thing to remember is that it's Moldvay-Cook Basic/Expert dressed in a more contemporary and comfortable set of clothes, so anything published for it isn't just easily convertible its immediately playable with B/X, Lab Lord and all the other close B/X retroclones.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-67813027292599677202021-06-19T12:14:40.565-07:002021-06-19T12:14:40.565-07:00It is good to have a vision to work towards, but y...It is good to have a vision to work towards, but you must also be willing to sacrifice that vision on the alter of pragmatism. We see, time and again, that fixed page counts can hinder an adventure. This is most notable in the one-pagers, but can extend to, it seems, the 58 page adventure. It's clear that sometimes there just be a few more pages.<br /><br />This can carry over in to all aspects, from writing to layout. Re: the trend to note lighting or door status for each room, and so on. You have to know when to(briefly) sacrifice your style guide for better results.Bryce Lynchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02937707770681963948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-80010426566604432432021-06-19T11:04:19.903-07:002021-06-19T11:04:19.903-07:00I suppose I've always held off on OSE stuff ju...I suppose I've always held off on OSE stuff just because it's tied to a specific system that I don't play, although I recognize that's silly and I'm sure they're broadly convertible. I'll have to take another look, thanks!<br /><br />At the risk of sounding sycophantic, that's something I've always really appreciated about your adventures - balancing scope and design goals and density of content is something I always struggle with, and I often look to your stuff for guidance.Brent, a Glass Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527121958432797222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-24147319209960507322021-06-19T09:37:49.762-07:002021-06-19T09:37:49.762-07:00It is interesting how a formal format/layout canal...It is interesting how a formal format/layout canalizes adventure design: how different authors respond to the same format, how it works for different styles of adventure (Plangent Mage's faction and combat centered dungeon vs. Palace of the Blood King's roleplay heavy vampire castle), and how design goals can conflict with this sort of formalism at the level of the entire adventure or even a single key. I don't believe that the 58 page limit is a format decision for all OSE adventures, just those produced through this Kickstarter, though it will be interesting to compare the three products and see how the format effects each. In general scope is a very difficult part of adventure design to pin down. It's easy to dream too big and end up with something unfocused, difficult to use or even incomplete (See B4 - Lost City), but also sometimes (See B11 King's Festival) to take too small an idea and expand on minutia to the point where its a chore to read or use.<br /><br />As a general note OSE products receive very positive reviews, popular enthusiasm, and from what I've seen are produced with a great deal of polish and professionalism (not surprising given the folks involved). I'm personally looking forward to see what else OSE puts out in the future, even if (as with every adventure) there are areas where I'd improve of do things differently. Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-81160906810766245412021-06-18T23:00:03.791-07:002021-06-18T23:00:03.791-07:00I love this format, and I hope you use it a lot mo...I love this format, and I hope you use it a lot more in the future. Having all of these perspectives stacked so densely really gives you a feel for the thing.<br /><br />I'm really interested by the added context of the fixed 58 pages. Kind of revealing in terms of what an author prioritizes, and it would be interesting to see how other writers allocate that space (outside of the context of this kickstarter at least...I've never had a chance to dive into the OSE canon and it's very much a "at this point I'm too afraid to ask" kind of deal). Makes you wonder what potentially ended up on the cutting room floor.Brent, a Glass Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14527121958432797222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-86531693962830665262021-06-18T20:11:06.741-07:002021-06-18T20:11:06.741-07:00Excellent review. I really like this approach. The...Excellent review. I really like this approach. The relflections from all involved, GM + players, helps me work out ideas about running this adventure and others like it, but also perhaps how my players will take to it: the GM reflections are very useful but so also are the player comments. Looking forward to your next review.Alistairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04631364538623314004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-37756482424693519252021-06-17T10:07:50.964-07:002021-06-17T10:07:50.964-07:00Comments that deviate from this principle will not...Comments that deviate from this principle will not be published in the future.Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-86444891894981533512021-06-17T10:07:17.295-07:002021-06-17T10:07:17.295-07:00I missed it the first time reading through your su...I missed it the first time reading through your substantive comment (and clicking to publish it), but "Eskimo" is not the current preferred term for any of the groups covered by that outdated word. I have no idea what the phrase as a whole means, google does not turn up any results on the combination of that word with limericks. But the general principle of this blog is to refer to individuals and groups in the way they would like us to refer to them. Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-7416135102037011592021-06-17T05:54:15.730-07:002021-06-17T05:54:15.730-07:00Moderation is key. Learn to love the moderation. Moderation is key. Learn to love the moderation. Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-23838936721306765222021-06-17T05:53:12.459-07:002021-06-17T05:53:12.459-07:00I agree that separating what's the AG experien...I agree that separating what's the AG experience from the module itself is an interesting issue for reviews going forward. So much emerges in play that you don't see in reading it, but then the question looms, "How universal an experience did we just have?" In our game, I think a lot of player dissatisfaction came from something I, the DM, brought to the table: the original hook. Really this is a location based adventure that doesn't tell you how to use it. If I had just tweaked the hook I gave the players slightly to "sell this thing if you can find the guy, but otherwise LOOT THE TOWER", then I think it would have gone better overall. That's not the module's fault. So I tried not to focus on that in my opening or closing remarks, even though I think that DM slip loomed large in the players' experience during the game. To be clear, although we think play testing is ideal for reviews, we can't manage it so often, so most reviews will not be AG reviews. Your point is: "Is it really ideal?" I have to think more about that. Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-26372599124634885722021-06-16T17:07:27.177-07:002021-06-16T17:07:27.177-07:00That's good to know, I'll try running it a...That's good to know, I'll try running it and see for myselfGB Nilssonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17388080222142283991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-28508854834945975922021-06-16T16:53:40.679-07:002021-06-16T16:53:40.679-07:00Moderation?! Oh, I'm going to have fun with th...Moderation?! Oh, I'm going to have fun with this! I can use it as my own private IM system! I wonder if I can insert a microdot? <br /><br />Hey, how's it going? Having a good night? Drink any good drinks lately? I snarfed a bottle of sake yesterday, not very good, it was a gift from my kid and I actually more prefer the unfiltered stuff. And, you know, sake ... but, hey, a proofs a proof. Bryce Lynchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02937707770681963948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-8200174561421931882021-06-16T16:51:19.426-07:002021-06-16T16:51:19.426-07:00Sounds like a good DM. Animal cleric or not, I hop...Sounds like a good DM. Animal cleric or not, I hope you got those whale fuckers to cough up some loot in return for saving them. Tithing is a thing. "Ok boys, start hacking up that ambergris like you've got a four pack a day habit!"<br /><br />Hooks are an issue. Ultimately the appeal to the lowest common denominator is "Do you want to play D&D tonight or not? So swallow up." And, of course, it's always up to the players to find a reason to go down in the hole. But, you can't ignore the detrimental impact that this has on immersion, buy in, and motivation. Or, perhaps rather, from another framing, the very positive effects that a good hook can have on gameplay immersion, if we view "shitty hook" as the norm. This doesn't tend to be an issue in plot-based games ... since you've got a plot, or in one-shots, since they generally have some weird-ass hook to get the pre-gens involved, like in a con game. And in a traditional site-based game in a campaign this isn't an issue either, since the DM has had time to work the angles and perhaps even put the magical thingy on the last level. A multi-session site-based game though, as this was, seems to suffer the worst of all worlds, with no real hook to follow and no ongoing campaign to leverage for the larger motivational context. Can you blame a tournament adventure for being a tournament adventure or a site-based adventure for being a site-based adventure? Or, maybe, you can blame them for not doing a better job, especially if they DO offer a hook. In some cases, just not having one is better than having one.<br /><br />DM: "As you come out of the mists you see an old Victorian mansion in the ..."<br />PC1: "I burn it down. We can sift the ashes for treasure. Screw you Ravenloft!"<br />DM: "But it was a home for widows and orphans!" <br />PC2: "Shit! We better use twice as much oil then, that place is a surefire deathtrap!"<br />DM: "Do you wanna play D&D tonight or not?"<br />PC's: "Fine, we go down in to the hole."<br /><br />Nice observations on the central elevator issue and toploading of treasure ... and diary.<br /><br />I think you also see some of the issues with AP as reviews. So much depends on the group on what the DM brings to the table. Valuable insights, but layers upon layers of new complexity to untangle in the evaluation and seperation of the experience from the product.<br /><br />You mention mostly in passing the wilderness. There was no chance of that bring forward the motivations which would have exploration of the tower, or deeper explorations of it, more meaningful? The amuse bouche to prepare for the main plate? In which case perhaps the designer could have done more to explicitly state that to the DM or channel the party that way?<br /><br />I'm rather fond of the NG house style, at least in concept, and prefer it over most of what gets used by default. There are a few products, I think, that both manage to use this shorthand style AND still be quite evocative. The key is less fact-based descriptions (exemplified by room 33's intro in your posted example) and, I think, less rigor in following the style at all costs. Rigor is good for learning something, but the step beyond is knowing when to use eskimo limericks.<br /><br />Bryce Lynchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02937707770681963948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-61245253139511466222021-06-16T14:20:25.858-07:002021-06-16T14:20:25.858-07:00The dungeon is a complex structure for sure, and t...The dungeon is a complex structure for sure, and there are some bits where I was thinking, "what is this balcony overlooking?" for a hot minute, but the layout was pretty clear in play I thought. Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-62665781548963942022021-06-16T13:38:42.719-07:002021-06-16T13:38:42.719-07:00Got the module as part of the OSE kickstarter and ...Got the module as part of the OSE kickstarter and read through it. Totally agree on it having a great theme that really carried it. The coloured buttons confused me somewhat as did the layout of the place - don't know if that was just me or if you would agree. <br /><br />Really informative review, if this blog continues like this I'm all here for it!GB Nilssonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17388080222142283991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-60982463826715028522021-06-16T12:37:57.652-07:002021-06-16T12:37:57.652-07:00This was a great inaugural review! I really got a ...This was a great inaugural review! I really got a decent feel for each person's "voice" in their writing and it felt like a good collaboration. I don't recall too many reviews where the whole group participated and it is refreshing to see. It is nice to have the different perspectives from multiple sides of the table.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01051914104568931295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-49737285262864632922021-06-16T11:41:45.519-07:002021-06-16T11:41:45.519-07:00Thank you! So a "dark Miyazaki" vibe (Mo...Thank you! So a "dark Miyazaki" vibe (Mononoke, Nausica) is somewhat in effect.Angry Wombathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04033824369630612971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-90690510981820504012021-06-16T10:26:59.731-07:002021-06-16T10:26:59.731-07:00This is a good point! I will try to include a desc...This is a good point! I will try to include a description of the feel of the module in the reviews in my series, Ludic Dreams. What I would say here is that the village and Darksand Isle have a lighter mystery sandbox feel. Players will be tempted to infer that the residents are Innsmouth types, but they're not: they are lovable but cranky sea-touched villagers. There are also treasure burying pirates, and mysterious ancient idols from the deep. Tying it all together are two themes: (1) Cetus' "having disturbed nature through hubris" (think Miyazaki) and (2) a tragic romance that is responsible for Cetus' plangency. The Undertower changes gears. Here I would say (1) dominates. We have a hostile sea, irate spirits, undead and mutated creatures penetrating an abandoned wizard's tower that is full of sound-based magic and the schemes of a wizard who was definitely messing with some things best left alone. It's a very dangerous and wonder-filled place. Ben L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04568198881628052274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6973193492803191556.post-42135413591565960212021-06-16T09:58:19.945-07:002021-06-16T09:58:19.945-07:00Nice review - gives a lot to think about in terms ...Nice review - gives a lot to think about in terms of "how to run/should I run" I almost think the "great layout" is a signature thing of Gavin, and others should pay attention and incorporate this into module design.<br /><br />I didn't quite catch (and would appreciate in future reviews) the "feel" of the module. You mentioned a not-quite-Innsmouth, so is there a call of cthulu/horror vibe going on here?Angry Wombathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04033824369630612971noreply@blogger.com